AN INTERVIEW WITH ARCHBISHOP Jorge Mario BERGOGLIO THAT I PERSONALLY KNEW OF….

 

Fr. Joseph Todde, called Peppino, a Sardinian parish priest in Ciampino, Rome had a close friendship with then Archbishop Francis Begoglio of Buenos Aires, who called on the Todde family whenever he came to Rome. At Peppino’s death on 1^st January, 2015, from the other end the voice over the Telephone sounded:  "Good evening, I am Pope Francis, I wanted to hold you close to me in your pain and express my sadness at the death of my dear friend Don Joseph." 

The Pope loved the parishioners, young and old, Peppino’s three brothers, their children and grandchildren. Numerous Italian and Argentine priests, had the privilege of ministering to the parishioners. This author too had the privilege to render pastoral services to this parish Church for two years, during his doctoral studies (2004-2006) at the Salesian Pontifical University (UPS), Rome. As the Archbishop Francesco, whenever he came to Rome for any meeting, he came to celebrate Mass at the Shrine of Ciampino.

In one such occasion, during his pastoral visit to this particular Parish, I took the courage to interview Francis Bergoglio.  Prior to the conclave for electing the next Pope after the death of John Paul II he had come to Rome for an important meeting. Cardinal Telesphore Toppo was then already at Vatican for the same purpose. Simple unassuming Francis (Archbishop) and I sat in the office of the Parish Priest. I asked him about who the next Pope is going to be, and about he being the future Pope, as his name was also going around as a prominent candidate. He just ignored such presumptions, and spoke about Asia’s contribution to the Church, especially as regards to the process of inculturation, about Card. Telesphore Toppo, about Asia’s contribution to the universal Church and his close association with the Salesians.

This Kennedy Avenue Parish for years had been a point of reference for Argentine priests/clergy students, whom the national coordinator of the time, in the 90s, Monsignor Jorge Bergoglio, sent to study in Rome and to collaborate with the Parish Priest of Beata Vergine Maria del Rosario Parish, through their pastoral ministry, especially on weekends.

(23 October, 2005 Rome): The Archbishop of Buones Aires, Argentina,  Bergoglio was interviewed at Ciampino Prish dedicated to the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary, Rome, by Fr. Soroj Mullick SDB, a doctoral research Scholar on Christian Education, on the then concluded 11th General Synod of Bishops 2005:

1.“Eucharist: the Living Bread for peace in the world”- why this title to the Synodal Document?

Jesus is alive, he lives on for peace and justice in the world. Jesus IS Eucharist. He lives on to realize peace in the World. The Eucharist, which is Jesus himself, continues acting for this peace in the entire world.

2.How come that the Concluding message of the synod speaks of  “a message full of hope” in the midst of all the difficulties that the Church and the World is facing today of which the Church Fathers have spoken elaborately at the Synod?

Jesus, yesterday, today and forever. He lives to the end…till the end of the world. This living Christ who embraces all, goes on bringing this message of hope like an Anchor, drawing all together towards peace and justice.

3.How did the Synod prepare to renew the missionary enthusiasm?

At the end of the celebration of the Eucharist, Christ sends all, saying “Go”. We must go to all the peripheries of human existence (He used the same expression in speaking publicly at the Synod). We are sent wherever we find this ‘periphery’ situation…in the parish, in the poor, in the heart of the city, in the lonely, in the hearts of men and women etc.

4.The Synod Fathers spoke at various times of ‘Inculturaiton’. In what way this process of inculturation is being suggested for the local Churches?

The Reforms of the Vatican Council II are to be realized. At the National level, that is, the Episcopal Conference should translate this in their particular regions and nations. The Synod fathers have affirmed that inculturized forms of religious expressions (including dances) be included in the liturgical celebrations.

5.Yesterday from the Italian TV, we have heard about your election to the Post Synodal Council at the very first voting. What do you say on this very first choice?

We hear people speaking highly about a person for a time being and then ‘all’ passes. People then forget. I was elected to be member of this council, to prepare the draft for the next Synod. Along with me there is also Bp. Telesphore Toppo too. Remember that this kind of  ‘greatness’ passes with time and then people forget.

To Think with the Church

 I have spent the last thirty-three years of my priesthood and forty-two years of my consecrated religious life, mostly as a priest, educator in faith and life, writer, and pastoring youth. To be with the Church, according to me is, that to think with the Church one requires that one thinks. Only through thinking that the Church doctrines, dogmas and directives appeal to the will and to reason.  We believe understanding, and understand believing.  Above all, loving  we obey, and we are enlightened. We then open to the light.  We hear and heed to the heart, and not just “hearing about,” being apprised of.  The faith matter is not mere “theological data”. Instead of turning away from facts, it is meant to dive deeply into “thinking about reality”.[1]  We often run the risk of substituting reality with subjective imagination and faith-expressions,  instead of treading truth with passion and reason.  Going behind the non-essentials, leads often to confusion, corruption, and contempt.

 The Church has no power to declare the bad to be good. God is Absolute Good. We need to be realistically grounded and not be on “high spiritual romance”.  Things can always be otherwise.  If so, Church-sin can do “immense social harm” if we think with Church’s thinking, and not think.

 To some conservative factions of the Catholic Church who consider him to be  a dangerously progressive, the present Pope Francis in his epiphany homily this year on the issue of  ideological splits in Church, asked the faithful to abandon “ecclesiastical ideologies”, and focus on poor, not 'theory'. He warned against “basking in some elegant religious theory” instead of finding “God who comes down to visit us”, especially in the poor. The Church needs to ensure that "our faith will not be reduced to an assemblage of religious devotions or mere outward appearance.” Pope Francis allows “the possibility of blessing couples in irregular situations and same-sex couples without officially validating their status or changing in any way the Church’s perennial teaching on marriage”. On this controversial blessing of the same-sex couples, while making efforts to make LGBTQ Catholics feel welcome, he stresses that the ordinary pastoral blessing is not heretical and that it has no doctrinal grounds to reject.

A lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, intersex, and queer (LGBTIQ) Christian tries to follow a man-Jesus who, without any formal scientific theological qualification, confronted difficult questions of life and society, with responses arising out of common sense, for the common good. His responses based themselves on understanding of his Father’s will and the real situation of the person in time and place, and the rest did not matter for him. He did not  act according to set precedence, norms, rules, rituals, canons, or magisterium. Jesus mostly took a different path naturally programmed by God his Father, to outgrow his ministry. He often engaged in “disruptive behaviour” in all that he said, did or failed to do. He, the ‘untrained’ one,  trained himself the Father’s way, who is ever understanding, gentle, kind yet firm.

For the religious leaders, Jesus seemed to be “intrinsically disordered”, one who  was disrespectful to the prevalent religious laws and directives. Jesus had a “theological discourse”, while exposing the Samaritan woman’s multiple marriages and her cohabiting nature — irregular sexual relationship. Unlike other ‘religious experts’ (Pharisees, Scribes), Jesus  the teacher committed himself to educating with the heart, with ‘loving kindness’, and dialogued with sinners with respect and dignity,  calling them to repentance. He did not condone sins, neither condemn them.

 God through the Church calls all to conversion and commission all to be his messengers of love — the good news. Jesus the Messiah, the Saviour of the world, likewise want the Church, his Body, to act in ways that fittingly qualifies its members, in Jesus’ mode of ministry. Breaking the religious rules (man-made), can hasten the ‘salvation of the world’. This is the vision of Christ, — the coming of the Kingdom of God. This is the thinking of the Church — a new way of ordering things, with love and non-violence. Like Jesus, the Church too has to face the resistance of “the world,” — cruelty, corruption, betrayal, denial, lies,  hatred and violence. God, the Absolute, who is all love, is above all religions or societal norms. Our pettiness and stupidity, our human justification cannot mow down His love. God meets us as we ARE, because God IS — Absolute Being without any form. Human encounter with God is devoid of judgments that are subject to the religious and societal norms. This is the new thinking of the Church, inaugurating the new creation and  bringing humanity into communion with God.

 Therefore, the traditionalists are rightly to be disturbed, just as those religious leaders two thousand years ago. They  engineered the 'blasphemer-Jesus’ execution because he posed a threat to the status quo, to their control over the religiosity of the common people. The hardness of human heart rejects God’s merciful love, and tries to “usurp the place of God”. 

 The secular cultural world, with regard to the Church, considers that something in her that is indissolubly linked to the human heart. Whereas, for Christians, the Church acts as the conscience of people, to act for the common good and coexist peacefully. It is a ‘religion of  freedom’, enlightened by the high reason of Christian faith in Jesus. She constructs common goals and tries to solve concrete problems of the society.  The Church combines the secular and the religious dimensions, converging on a common  and mutual enrichment. Facing a crisis of values and the loss of the religious living, the Church validly still continues to build up the kingdom of God — the Absolute, within a secularized world.

 

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[1] Anthony Esolen, To Think with the Church’, https://www.thecatholicthing.org/2024/01/08/to-think-with-the-church-2/?utm_source=The+Catholic+Thing+Daily&utm, 9.1.2024